Saturday, July 6, 2013

Knight

Is belief in the diety of Christ an essential belief if one claims to be Christian?

Lighthouse · Today, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knight

Is belief in the deity of Christ an essential belief if one claims to be Christian?

Yes

I fixed it for you.

genuineoriginal · Today, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knight

Is belief in the diety of Christ an essential belief if one claims to be Christian?

The Bible never expressly states that Jesus is the One True God, but does explicitly state that Jesus is not the Father.

The essential belief for Christians is that Jesus is the Son of God and that no man comes to the Father except through Jesus.

In order to come to the Father through Jesus, you must believe that the Father raised Jesus from the dead, and accept Jesus as your Lord.

Accepting Jesus as your Lord means accepting your position as His property and His position as your owner.

Many people think a belief that Jesus is the One True God is all they need and neglect to accept Him as their owner and refuse to obey Him as His property.

rocketman · Today, 01:14 AM

Absolutely!

ChristNU · Today, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knight

Is belief in the diety of Christ an essential belief if one claims to be Christian?

Belief in the real Jesus Christ of the bible is essential...and the Jesus Christ of the bible is God.

csuguy · Today, 01:21 AM

There is no scripture that demands we beleive any such thing - nor is there adequate support for the idea from scripture that Jesus is God. To the contrary, Jesus always refers to himself as the Son of God/Man, never as God. He always takes a deferential role, and various scriptures make it clear that Jesus is subordinate to God. He himself says very plainly that God is greater. Trinitarians try to interpret this as a temporary state of inferiority due to the incarnation - but there is no contextual justification for such an interpretation.

Far more important than the Trinity is doing as Christ taught us to do.

genuineoriginal · Today, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChristNU

Belief in the real Jesus Christ of the bible is essential...and the Jesus Christ of the bible is God.

James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Mark 5:7
And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

How strange that the devils always called Jesus the Son of God and never thought of Him as the most high God.

ChristNU · Today, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by genuineoriginal

James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Mark 5:7
And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

How strange that the devils always called Jesus the Son of God and never thought of Him as the most high God.

Have you considered that what is truly strange is that Jesus always referred to Himself as the Son of Man and that the demons always referred to Him as the Son of God? Seems counterproductive on the part of the demons if their goal was to discount or deny Jesus deity, don't you think?

The truth is that the demons were in fact acknowledging Jesus deity in an attempt to discredit His humanity.

steko · Today, 02:04 AM

Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Luk_10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

Joh_10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Can a finite mind know infinite mind in the same way infinite mind can know finite mind?

1Ti_2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Can a person who is only a man be a true mediator between the finite and the infinite?

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus
Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord

YHVH is translated as Kurios in the LXX.

1Co 12:3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus is accursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit.

Php 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Php 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Isa 45:23 By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: 'To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.'

Isaiah proclaims this of YHVH. Paul uses the same reference to Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is LORD/YHVH.

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

chrysostom · Today, 02:07 AM

anyone who doesn't believe Jesus is God
does not really understand what Jesus did for us
in order to redeem us
Jesus had to be God

Nick M · Today, 02:09 AM

Anybody that denies him is evidence that they do not believe his testimony, or even worse, reject him.

surrender · Today, 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knight

Is belief in the diety of Christ an essential belief if one claims to be Christian?

No.

surrender · Today, 02:16 AM

So, all you guys who say it's essential to believe in the deity of Jesus came to that conclusion the moment you came to faith in Jesus as your Savior? The Spirit didn't baptize you into the body of Christ until you realized the deity of Jesus? Well, that would mean I followed Jesus for an entire year before I was a "Christian." I find that absurd.

Paulos · Today, 02:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csuguy

There is no scripture that demands we beleive any such thing - nor is there adequate support for the idea from scripture that Jesus is God.

It is clear that the Jews took Jesus' claim to be the Son of God as blasphemy (John 10:33, 19:7) and neither Jesus nor the Apostles after Him ever attempted to refute the Jews' understanding of Jesus' claim as a claim to divinity. In fact, they went on to assert it. They write that prior to His Incarnation, Jesus "existed in the form of God" (Phil 2:6), "in the bosom of the Father" (John 1:18). Jesus is "the image of God" (2 Cor 4:4), and "the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature" (Heb 1:3; Col 1:15). Furthermore, 1 Cor 15:28 says that "God may be all in all" while Col 3:11 says that "Christ is all and in all." Col. 2:9 says "in Jesus Christ the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily."

Quote:

Originally Posted by csuguy

To the contrary, Jesus always refers to himself as the Son of God/Man, never as God. He always takes a deferential role, and various scriptures make it clear that Jesus is subordinate to God. He himself says very plainly that God is greater. Trinitarians try to interpret this as a temporary state of inferiority due to the incarnation - but there is no contextual justification for such an interpretation.

Phil 2:5-7:

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.

Quote:

Originally Posted by csuguy

Far more important than the Trinity is doing as Christ taught us to do.

chrysostom · Today, 02:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csuguy

Far more important than the Trinity is doing as Christ taught us to do.

so you don't believe Jesus redeemed us?

csuguy · Today, 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paulos

It is clear that the Jews took Jesus' claim to be the Son of God as blasphemy (John 10:33, 19:7)

It is clear that the Jews didn't understand what Jesus was claiming. Take John 10 for instance, he said that he is "one" with the Father. They interpreted this as him saying he IS the Father.

First off, if you think they got this correct then you must reject the Trinity - which says that Jesus is NOT the Father, while still being the same God. Second off, it is clear here and from other similar scriptures that what is meant by being "one" with the Father is not a matter of being one in the same entity. Rather he prays that we be one as he and the Father are one. It a unity of purpose, of will, etc.

Second off, you should read Jesus reply to their accusation. He says that while the scriptures call them 'gods' - he only claims to be the Son of God.

Quote:

and neither Jesus nor the Apostles after Him ever attempted to refute the Jews' understanding of Jesus' claim as a claim to divinity. In fact, they went on to assert it. They write that prior to His Incarnation, Jesus "existed in the form of God" (Phil 2:6), "in the bosom of the Father" (John 1:18). Jesus is "the image of God" (2 Cor 4:4), and "the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature" (Heb 1:3; Col 1:15). Furthermore, 1 Cor 15:28 - says that "God may be all in all" while Col 3:11 says that "Christ is all and in all." Col. 2:9 says "in Jesus Christ the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily."

Most of the debates that they had w/ other Jews is not recorded for us. The epistles were directed primarily to the churches, to fellow Christians. As such, they deal with conflicts inside the church as opposed to the later Apologies by the Church Fathers which were defenses of the faith to the outside world.

Nevertheless, it is clear from the epistles that they did not understand Jesus as being God Almighty, but maintain that he is subordinate to God. There are any number of verses I could provide, such as Christs own testimony that the Father is greater. But rather than try to bog the thread down w/ a large volume of verses, we can pick individual ones and examine them. Here is a good one from Paul:

1 Cor 15:20-28 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in [h]Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

See how Paul understands Jesus to be both distinct and subordinate to God. It is God who has subjected all things to Christ, all except himself who remains the greater.

Quote:

Phil 2:5-7:

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.

A commonly misunderstood chapter. What does it mean to be in the "form of God"? This is referring to how Jesus is the perfect image of God above, as other scriptures talk about. But by being an image he is necessarily not that which he is an image of.

Also, you are using a bad translation. Here is a better one (NASB):

Have this attitude [e]in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be [f]grasped, 7 but [g]emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

Jesus did NOT seek to be regarded as equal w/ God, but took on a lowly form.

csuguy · Today, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrysostom

so you don't believe Jesus redeemed us?

huh? Of course I do. One doesn't need the Trinity to believe that

Paulos · Today, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csuguy

It is clear that the Jews didn't understand what Jesus was claiming. Take John 10 for instance, he said that he is "one" with the Father. They interpreted this as him saying he IS the Father.

The phrase "equal with God" in Philippians 2:6 confirms the Jews' understanding that Jesus claimed equality with God in John 5:18 and 10:33.

csuguy · Today, 02:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paulos

The phrase "equal with God" in Philippians 2:6 confirms the Jews' understanding that Jesus claimed equality with God in John 5:18 and 10:33.

As Phil 2:6 says, he did not seek to be considered equal with God. Jesus himself testifies that God is greater. We see that Paul did not consider them equal or equivalent, but considered them distinct and with the Son being subordinate.

chrysostom · Today, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csuguy

huh? Of course I do. One doesn't need the Trinity to believe that

how does His suffering and death redeem us
if
He is not God?

Paulos · 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csuguy

As Phil 2:6 says, he did not seek to be considered equal with God.

As Phil 2:6 also says, Jesus divested himself of his inherent rights ("being in the form of God") in order to take upon himself "the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men" (Phil 2:7).

Quote:

Originally Posted by csuguy

Jesus himself testifies that God is greater. We see that Paul did not consider them equal or equivalent, but considered them distinct and with the Son being subordinate.

Yes, the Father is greater than the Son because the Son proceeds from the Father (John 7:29).

Bright Raven · Today, 03:08 AM

glorydaz · Today, 03:23 AM

Yes. I was saved the same day I read this, and it's why I always share it first with those who are being drawn to the light. Without this proper foundation, how can one truly believe?

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

RandPaulfor2016 · Today, 03:26 AM

I'd say its possible for a young Christian to not totally understand the Trinity. So I won't dogmatically state that someone who claims to be a Christian, and believes that Jesus is the Son of God, but does not believe Jesus is God, is damned.

I'll leave that up to God.

Nonetheless, believing that is extremely awful theology. I don't think anyone who believes it is qualified to be a church leader anywhere, and they need to be corrected.

csuguy · Today, 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrysostom

how does His suffering and death redeem us
if
He is not God?

Why does he need to be God for his suffering and death to matter? Nowhere in scripture does it say that it is because he was God that his death redeemed us. Rather, it is because he was pure and sinless that his death was able to redeem us - hence he is symbolized as an unblemished lamb.

csuguy · Today, 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paulos

As Phil 2:6 also says, Jesus divested himself of his inherent rights ("being in the form of God") in order to take upon himself "the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men" (Phil 2:7).

Yes - but as I pointed out before, him being the form of God - being his perfect image - does not equate to him being God. Rather, as an image of God and his representative, he must necessarily not be God himself.

Quote:

Yes, the Father is greater than the Son because the Son proceeds from the Father (John 7:29).

Indeed, God sent his Son to us - he himself did not come and die.

chrysostom · Today, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csuguy

Rather, it is because he was pure and sinless that his death was able to redeem us

why do you believe that?

Bright Raven · Today, 03:40 AM

Quote:

Yes - but as I pointed out before, him being the form of God - being his perfect image - does not equate to him being God. Rather, as an image of God and his representative, he must necessarily not be God himself.

Huh? Sort of double talk isn't it? Let's read it again.

Philippians 2:6

King James Version (KJV)

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

If he is equal with God what does that make him?

csuguy · Today, 03:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrysostom

why do you believe that?

Because that is what scripture teaches. He is the passover lamb. Nowhere does scripture ever say God needed to die, and in fact the Early Church considered it heresy to suggest that the Father came and died for us -as if he could die. To the contrary, the OT provides more than sufficient proof that God need not be the one who dies for the sake of redemption. The Jews were spared the judgment in Egypt when they sacrificed lambs and put their blood on their door posts. For this reason God is said to have redeemed them. And it is this very act which foreshadows Christ.

csuguy · Today, 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Raven

Huh? Sort of double talk isn't it? Let's read it again.

Philippians 2:6

King James Version (KJV)

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

If he is equal with God what does that make him?

Again: bad version. Try NASB: "who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be [f]grasped," - He did not seek equality w/ God. Furthermore, he himself plainly declares that the Father is greater. There are numerous verses which point out how Christ is subordinate to God.

Bright Raven · Today, 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csuguy

Because that is what scripture teaches. He is the passover lamb. Nowhere does scripture ever say God needed to die, and in fact the Early Church considered it heresy to suggest that the Father came and died for us -as if he could die. To the contrary, the OT provides more than sufficient proof that God need to be the one who dies for the sake of redemption. The Jews were spared the judgment in Egypt when they sacrificed lambs and put their blood on their door posts. For this reason God is said to have redeemed them. And it is this very act which foreshadows Christs act.

But that is what it says.

Acts 20:27-29

27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

csuguy · Today, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Raven

But that is what it says.

Acts 20:27-29

27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Let us examine the fuller context shall we?

24 But I do not consider my life of any account as dear to myself, so that I may finish my course and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify solemnly of the gospel of the grace of God. 25 “And now, behold, I know that all of you, among whom I went about preaching the kingdom, will no longer see my face. 26 Therefore, I [o]testify to you this day that I am [p]innocent of the blood of all men. 27 For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God. 28 Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you [q]overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He [r]purchased [s]with His own blood.

It should be clear that "HE" refers to Jesus - not God. And, of course, this is settled easily be examine other verses which plainly state that God did not come himself - but rather he sent his Son to us.

chrysostom · Today, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csuguy

He is the passover lamb.

He is the Lamb of God

what does that mean to you?

genuineoriginal · Today, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrysostom

how does His suffering and death redeem us
if
He is not God?

Hebrews 2

csuguy · Today, 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrysostom

He is the Lamb of God

what does that mean to you?

As I pointed out in my last post, God's act of redemption in the Egypt via lambs blood was the foreshadowing of Christ. Just as how God's judgment passed over the Jews in Egypt, so to the Judgment will pass over us in the end days - because we have been redeemed by Christ's blood.

Paulos · Today, 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csuguy

Yes - but as I pointed out before, him being the form of God - being his perfect image - does not equate to him being God. Rather, as an image of God and his representative, he must necessarily not be God himself.

Jesus is:

the Only Begotten Son of God, (John 3:16)
born of the Father before all ages. (Colossians 1:15, 1:17)
God from God (John 1:1-2),
Light from Light, (John 1:4, 1:9, 2 Corinthians 4:6, Hebrews 1:3)
true God from true God, (1 John 5:20)
begotten, not made, (John 1:14)
consubstantial with the Father; (cf. 1 John 1:5 & John 8:12)
through him all things were made. (John 1:3, 1:10, Colossians 1:16, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Romans 11:36, Hebrews 1:10)
For us men and for our salvation (Matthew 1:21, 1 Thessalonians 5:9, Colossians 1:13-14)
he came down from heaven, (John 3:13, 3:31, 6:38)
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:34-35)
and became man. (John 1:14, Hebrews 2:14)

csuguy · Today, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paulos

Jesus is:

the Only Begotten Son of God, (John 3:16)
born of the Father before all ages. (Colossians 1:15, 1:17)
God from God (John 1:1-2),
Light from Light, (John 1:4, 1:9, 2 Corinthians 4:6, Hebrews 1:3)
true God from true God, (1 John 5:20)
begotten, not made, (John 1:14)
consubstantial with the Father; (cf. 1 John 1:5 & John 8:12)
through him all things were made. (John 1:3, 1:10, Colossians 1:16, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Romans 11:36, Hebrews 1:10)
For us men and for our salvation (Matthew 1:21, 1 Thessalonians 5:9, Colossians 1:13-14)
he came down from heaven, (John 3:13, 3:31, 6:38)
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:34-35)
and became man. (John 1:14, Hebrews 2:14)

If you want to debate this topic reasonably then present a real argument. If you are just going to spew rhetoric then I will ignore you. I accept all the same verses - merely listing them is not an argument.

chrysostom · Today, 04:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csuguy

As I pointed out in my last post, God's act of redemption in the Egypt via lambs blood was the foreshadowing of Christ. Just as how God's judgment passed over the Jews in Egypt, so to the Judgment will pass over us in the end days - because we have been redeemed by Christ's blood.

now that is a dodge
He is not the passover lamb
He is the Lamb of God

what does Lamb of God mean to you

csuguy · Today, 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrysostom

now that is a dodge
He is not the passover lamb
He is the Lamb of God

what does Lamb of God mean to you

That is not a dodge. That is what being the lamb of God refers to - his sacrifice which God used to redeem us like he used the lambs blood in Egypt - and which causes the judgment to passover us as it passed over them. He IS the passover lamb.

1 Corinthians 5:7
Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.

Paulos · Today, 04:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csuguy

If you want to debate this topic reasonably then present a real argument. If you are just going to spew rhetoric then I will ignore you. I accept all the same verses - merely listing them is not an argument.

You say you accept all the same verses. Does that mean that you also accept the portion of the Nicene Creed I quoted along with those verses? If not, how does that portion of the Nicene Creed contradict the verses I cited?

resurrected · Today, 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knight

Is belief in the diety of Christ an essential belief if one claims to be Christian?

Of course

csuguy · Today, 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paulos

You say you accept all the same verses. Does that mean that you also accept the portion of the Nicene Creed I quoted along with those verses? If not, how does that portion of the Nicene Creed contradict the verses I cited?

I don't accept the Nicene Creed - it holds no authority. But the same point holds w/ your quote of the Nicene Creed as well - simply quoting it is not an argument.

RandPaulfor2016 · Today, 04:56 AM

For the record, while I do believe its technically possible to err on this issue and still be saved early in one's Christian walk, I don't consider it a topic which reasonable, Biblical Christians can disagree on like predestination, infant baptism, or other similar important but not essential doctrines are.

I think Jesus' divinity and the Trinity is extremely important and if you reject that, you are certainly a weak Christian at the very best.

Paulos · Today, 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csuguy

I don't accept the Nicene Creed - it holds no authority. But the same point holds w/ your quote of the Nicene Creed as well - simply quoting it is not an argument.

The point is that I quoted a passage of the Nicene Creed along with corroborating scripture references. If you don't agree that the verses I referenced do in fact corroborate the Creed, I'd like to know why.

Also, here are links to quotes from various Apostolic fathers regarding the divinity of Jesus:

http://www.johnankerberg.org/Article...th-Century.pdf

http://www.crossroadsinitiative.com/...of_christ.html

The Nicene Creed was not some new doctrine that was invented in the Fourth Century. It was a distillation of traditional Christian teaching on the nature of God.

chrysostom · Today, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csuguy

That is not a dodge. That is what being the lamb of God refers to - his sacrifice which God used to redeem us like he used the lambs blood in Egypt - and which causes the judgment to passover us as it passed over them. He IS the passover lamb.

1 Corinthians 5:7
Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.

where was the Lamb of God when the Jews were freed from Egypt?

csuguy · Today, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paulos

The point is that I quoted a passage of the Nicene Creed along with corroborating scripture references. If you don't agree that the verses I referenced do in fact corroborate the Creed, I'd like to know why.

If you wanted to know what I thought of the interpretation of individual passages then you should have asked that - rather than simply quoting it.

As far as what was quoted, I don't have any problem w/ anything in particular - though clarification may need to be made on a couple points. Such as the "God from God" part. There are indeed a couple passages in scripture which refer to him as "God." However, what does this mean? When God sent Moses to Pharaoh, he told him that he has made him God to Pharaoh - and Aaron he has made his Prophet. Likewise, Jesus is "God" to us - being God's representative to us. And of course the Jews are called "gods" because they are considered Sons of God. Again, angels sent by God to men in the OT were addressed as if they were God himself, being his representatives. Such as the angel in the burning bush who appeared to Moses. So that a couple scriptures refer to him as "God" is insufficient to establish that he is God Almighty - and there are plenty of scriptures, some of which I have already provided, which explicitly refute the idea. For he is subordinate to God - he is the mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ.

Quote:

Also, here are links to quotes from various Apostolic fathers regarding the divinity of Jesus:

http://www.johnankerberg.org/Article...th-Century.pdf

http://www.crossroadsinitiative.com/...of_christ.html

The Nicene Creed was not some new doctrine that was invented in the Fourth Century. It was a distillation of traditional Christian teaching on the nature of God.

I did my Senior Project for my Religious Studies degree on the topic of the Ante-Nicene Fathers and the Trinity. I can send you a copy if you'd like?

csuguy · Today, 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrysostom

where was the Lamb of God when the Jews were freed from Egypt?

Scripture doesn't say where Jesus was at that time. Unless you mean the rock in the desert perhaps?

Paulos · Today, 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csuguy

I did my Senior Project for my Religious Studies degree on the topic of the Ante-Nicene Fathers and the Trinity. I can send you a copy if you'd like?

Sure, why not.

jgarden · Today, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Arianism

Arianism is the theological teaching attributed to Arius (ca. AD 250–336), a Christian presbyter in Alexandria, Egypt, concerning the relationship of God to the Son of God (Jesus of Nazareth). Arius asserted that the Son of God was a subordinate entity to God the Father. Deemed a heretic by the Ecumenical First Council of Nicaea of 325, Arius was later exonerated in 335 at the regional First Synod of Tyre, and then, after his death, pronounced a heretic again at the Ecumenical First Council of Constantinople of 381 .....

The Arian concept of Christ is that the Son of God did not always exist, but was created by—and is therefore distinct from—God the Father. This belief is grounded in the Gospel of John passage “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." (John 14:28)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism

Reference to Jesus as the "Son of God" creates the false impression that God created Jesus, thus relegating Him to a lesser deity.

Although Jesus of Nazareth may have appeared to have assumed that role of the "Son" when He took human form while on earth, He is part of the Trinity and not a totally separate entity.

keypurr · Today, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csuguy

Scripture doesn't say where Jesus was at that time. Unless you mean the rock in the desert perhaps?

My dear friend, I am so glad that your schooling has not detoured you from free thinking. You know truth, you preach it.

God has blessed you my young friend.

keypurr · Today, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgarden

Reference to Jesus as the "Son of God" creates the false impression that God created Jesus, thus relegating Him to a lesser deity.

Although Jesus of Nazareth may have appeared to have assumed that role while He took human form on earth, He is part of the Trinity and not a totally separate entity.

I suggest you study Hebrews 1.

Christ is the express IMAGE. of his God. Ponder on the words EXPRESS IMAGE. God created Christ first, he is firstborn of all creation. All things were created by God THROUGH Christ. Christ is a lesser deity than his father. There is no trinity friend. One true God and one Lord just as Paul says.

john w · Today, 05:49 AM

Yes.

“Wherefore the people did chide with Moses, and said, Give us water that we may drink. And Moses said unto them, Why chide ye with me? wherefore do ye tempt the LORD?” Exodus 17:2 KJV

“Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.” 1 Corinthians 10:9 KJV

Thus, Exodus says “the people” tempted whom? The LORD. And the scriptures in 1 Cor., referring to the same OT history of “children of Israel”(Exodus 17:1 KJV), says they tempted Christ. Christ is the LORD God.

Read it-"some of them also tempted"-they tempted "the LORD," who Paul identifies as "Christ." Paul was referring to the same historical event.

Watch the spin, tap dancing, and "Yeh, but........."'s.

This thread is officially closed-don't tempt me to....

Cruciform · Today, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knight

Is belief in the diety of Christ an essential belief if one claims to be Christian?

Absolutely. It is the only position which accounts for all of the biblical data and, thus, the only "Christian" position.

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

steko · Today, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by john w

Yes.

“Wherefore the people did chide with Moses, and said, Give us water that we may drink. And Moses said unto them, Why chide ye with me? wherefore do ye tempt the LORD?” Exodus 17:2 KJV

“Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.” 1 Corinthians 10:9 KJV

Thus, Exodus says “the people” tempted whom? The LORD. And the scriptures in 1 Cor., referring to the same OT history of “children of Israel”(Exodus 17:1 KJV), says they tempted Christ. Christ is the LORD God.

Read it-"some of them also tempted"-they tempted "the LORD," who Paul identifies as "Christ." Paul was referring to the same historical event.

Watch the spin, tap dancing, and "Yeh, but........."'s.

This thread is officially closed-don't tempt me to....

Saint John-

oatmeal · Today, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knight

Is belief in the diety of Christ an essential belief if one claims to be Christian?

It is belief that is repugnant to Christianity.

barley

oatmeal · Today, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oatmeal

It is belief that is repugnant to Christianity.

barley

Jesus Christ is not God the son,

He is the son of God.

See scriptures

Bright Raven · Today, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oatmeal

Jesus Christ is not God the son,

He is the son of God.

See scriptures

You always have been confused.

chrysostom · Today, 06:46 AM

1 John 2:22
King James Version (KJV)
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

john w · Today, 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oatmeal

Jesus Christ is not God the son,

He is the son of God.

See scriptures

I Kings 8 KJV
39 Then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men

The "thou" here is referring to the LORD God. Do you agree that only the LORD God knows the hearts of men?

"thou only"

"It is not that complicated"(STP)

tomlapalm · Today, 07:20 AM

If Jesus wasn't God, then there is no salvation for us.

If Jesus wasn't God, then he was just another created being.

His perfect life would only account for one eternal life, His own.

But if God, himself, in the flesh, the Judge who condemned us, came down from the bench, became one of us and took our penalty to allow all of us to be with Him.

Tehmill · Today, 07:25 AM

It is essential to our salvation that He IS God [so far as I can work out] the only thing we need in order to be saved is to call upon Him as the appointed Saviour...faith does not equate to knowledge.

Cruciform · Today, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oatmeal

Jesus Christ is not God the son, He is the son of God.

oatmeal thus offers Arianism 101.

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

TruthSetsFree · Today, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by genuineoriginal

The Bible never expressly states that Jesus is the One True God, but does explicitly state that Jesus is not the Father.

y.

are you kidding?

u dont know the bible

Jesus said "If you have seen Me you have seen the Father"

and "The Father and I are one"

Aner · Today, 08:47 AM

NO!!!!

This is absurd Vaticanist prattle.

Simply read Jn20:31 and Rom 10:9 - and you will see that there is no Satanic deception such as one must believe Jesus is the essence and 2nd person of the Almighty Creator.

May God create blight on the houses of those who teach this evil, anti-Christ teaching!

Cruciform · Today, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TruthSetsFree

Jesus said "If you have seen Me you have seen the Father" and "The Father and I are one"

One in Being, but not one Person. The Father and Son are two distinct Divine Persons. (Just wanted to clarify.)

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

Lighthouse · Today, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrysostom

anyone who doesn't believe Jesus is God
does not really understand what Jesus did for us
in order to redeem us
Jesus had to be God

This is one thing upon which we agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by surrender

So, all you guys who say it's essential to believe in the deity of Jesus came to that conclusion the moment you came to faith in Jesus as your Savior? The Spirit didn't baptize you into the body of Christ until you realized the deity of Jesus? Well, that would mean I followed Jesus for an entire year before I was a "Christian." I find that absurd.

Depends. What did you believe for that year and why?

Quote:

Originally Posted by csuguy

Why does he need to be God for his suffering and death to matter? Nowhere in scripture does it say that it is because he was God that his death redeemed us. Rather, it is because he was pure and sinless that his death was able to redeem us - hence he is symbolized as an unblemished lamb.

He could only be pure and sinless if He was God. And if He was, then He is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aner

NO!!!!

This is absurd Vaticanist prattle.

Simply read Jn20:31 and Rom 10:9 - and you will see that there is no Satanic deception such as one must believe Jesus is the essence and 2nd person of the Almighty Creator.

May God create blight on the houses of those who teach this evil, anti-Christ teaching!

Romans 10:9 kills your argument, for it states we must confess the LordJesus, and there is only one Lord.

Untellectual · Today, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cruciform

One in Being, but not one Person. The Father and Son are two distinct Divine Persons. (Just wanted to clarify.)

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

Do you use the word "nature" in philosophical or theological language?

csuguy · Today, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lighthouse

He could only be pure and sinless if He was God. And if He was, then He is.

Wrong and wrong. You are merely regurgitating rhetoric. There is no scripture which teaches that one must be God to be sinless and pure. Rather, scripture teaches us that sin is a choice we make - but there is always a choice available to us which does not require us to sin. It is merely a matter of persevering in choosing to do what is right, choosing to do God's will vs. pursuing sinful desires. It is not an easy thing to do - but it is not impossible either. Even before Christ, Elijah was whisked away to heaven w/o having to die.

keypurr · Today, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cruciform

Absolutely. It is the only position which accounts for all of the biblical data and, thus, the only "Christian" position.

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

phooey

keypurr · Today, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrysostom

1 John 2:22
King James Version (KJV)
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

The question should be "Is Christ God?"

Most are not denying that Jesus is the Christ.
But you must realize that Christ has a God over him.
Did he not say that his Father is greater than ALL?
.

keypurr · Today, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomlapalm

If Jesus wasn't God, then there is no salvation for us.

If Jesus wasn't God, then he was just another created being.

His perfect life would only account for one eternal life, His own.

But if God, himself, in the flesh, the Judge who condemned us, came down from the bench, became one of us and took our penalty to allow all of us to be with Him.

God did not come down to us, HE SENT HIS SON.

God can not die so God sent his spiritual son to dwell in a man to die for us. Don't believe what you have been told, believe what is written.

Lighthouse · Today, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csuguy

Wrong and wrong. You are merely regurgitating rhetoric. There is no scripture which teaches that one must be God to be sinless and pure. Rather, scripture teaches us that sin is a choice we make - but there is always a choice available to us which does not require us to sin. It is merely a matter of persevering in choosing to do what is right, choosing to do God's will vs. pursuing sinful desires. It is not an easy thing to do - but it is not impossible either. Even before Christ, Elijah was whisked away to heaven w/o having to die.

Logic, which is from God, dictates that only God is without sin. Romans 3:23 tells us all have sinned, but we know Jesus has not.

And John 1 tells us Jesus is God.

keypurr · Today, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tehmill

It is essential to our salvation that He IS God [so far as I can work out] the only thing we need in order to be saved is to call upon Him as the appointed Saviour...faith does not equate to knowledge.

I disagree, he had to be a man to be the Lamb of God.

Christ was IN Jesus. Christ is not God, he is a form of God. Christ has a God over him. The God that created him.

surrender · Today, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lighthouse

Depends. What did you believe for that year and why?

I believed that Jesus was sent from God specifically to heal me from my sin. I believed that there was no relief from the inherent realization of overwhelming death that coursed through my veins. My spirit communicated to me that Jesus was the only way to have victory over the death that was in me.

glorydaz · Today, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keypurr

God did not come down to us, HE SENT HIS SON.

God can not die so God sent his spiritual son to dwell in a man to die for us. Don't believe what you have been told, believe what is written.

Depends on who you ask. You ignore half of what's written.

John 16:27
For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

keypurr · Today, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TruthSetsFree

are you kidding?

u dont know the bible

Jesus said "If you have seen Me you have seen the Father"

and "The Father and I are one"

Joh_17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Joh_17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Joh_17:22 [color="red"]And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:[/COLOR]
Joh_17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

You do not understand his words.

glorydaz · Today, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keypurr

I disagree, he had to be a man to be the Lamb of God.

Christ was IN Jesus. Christ is not God, he is a form of God. Christ has a God over him. The God that created him.

Guess you didn't get the memo.

Matthew 16:20
Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

keypurr · Today, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keypurr

Joh_17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Joh_17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Joh_17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:[/
Joh_17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

You do not understand his words.

keypurr · Today, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glorydaz

Guess you didn't get the memo.

Matthew 16:20
Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

Hi Glorydaz, I got the memo long before you might have been born.

The Christ is not God but a form of God. Christ is the express image of his creator. A spiritualk being, he was in Jesus and that is why Jesus is the Christ.

Lighthouse · Today, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by surrender

I believed that Jesus was sent from God specifically to heal me from my sin. I believed that there was no relief from the inherent realization of overwhelming death that coursed through my veins. My spirit communicated to me that Jesus was the only way to have victory over the death that was in me.

OK, why did you not believe Jesus was God? Did you consciously believe He was not God?

keypurr · Today, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lighthouse

Logic, which is from God, dictates that only God is without sin. Romans 3:23 tells us all have sinned, but we know Jesus has not.

And John 1 tells us Jesus is God.

No, Jesus was without sin also.

If you believe in God, believe in his Christ also.

Lighthouse · Today, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keypurr

No, Jesus was without sin also.

If you believe in God, believe in his Christ also.

I stated that only God is without sin and that Jesus [Christ] is God. Don't be an imbecile.

keypurr · Today, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lighthouse

OK, why did you not believe Jesus was God? Did you consciously believe He was not God?

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Christ tells you that there is only one true God, his father.

Listen to him. Christ was with God at the creation. Christ is a form of God. A created form for he is the express image of God. All power was given to him to create as all things were created through this Christ spirit.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

keypurr · Today, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lighthouse

I stated that only God is without sin and that Jesus [Christ] is God. Don't be an imbecile.

No he is not God, he is the son of God. Your not reflecting his love right now Lighthouse. Christ is the EXPRESS IMAGE of GOD. See Hebrews 1. Your trinity doctrine has been disproved with scripture. Jesus Christ has a God. You can not be the most high God and have a God over you. Christ was sent by his God.

Get out of the church box and see what his words are saying.

Lighthouse · Today, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keypurr

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Christ tells you that there is only one true God, his father.

Listen to him. Christ was with God at the creation. Christ is a form of God. A created form for he is the express image of God. All power was given to him to create as all things were created through this Christ spirit.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Jesus says there is only one true God, as do others in the Bible. Paul states there is only one Lord. David called the Father "Lord." Jesus is said to be the Lord, by his disciples, by Paul, etc. John 1:1 states that the Word was God [and we know that God never stops being God]. If the Word is not the same God as the Father then it is a false God. John 1:14 tells us the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, which means God became flesh and dwelt among us; unless you want to argue that a false God became flesh and dwelt among us. Do you want to argue that? So who dwelt among us in the flesh? It was Jesus! Jesus is the Word of John 1! Jesus is God! So, either Jesus is a false God or He is the one true God, same God as the Father!

keypurr · Today, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lighthouse

Jesus says there is only one true God, as do others in the Bible. Paul states there is only one Lord. David called the Father "Lord." Jesus is said to be the Lord, by his disciples, by Paul, etc. John 1:1 states that the Word was God [and we know that God never stops being God]. If the Word is not the same God as the Father then it is a false God. John 1:14 tells us the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, which means God became flesh and dwelt among us; unless you want to argue that a false God became flesh and dwelt among us. Do you want to argue that? So who dwelt among us in the flesh? It was Jesus! Jesus is the Word of John 1! Jesus is God! So, either Jesus is a false God or He is the one true God, same God as the Father!

If Jesus says that only his Father is the TRUE God why do you question him? Instead you should try and find out what he is telling you. Jesus and Christ at one time were two seperate beings. One is physical and one is spiritual. Do a study on them it will be worth your time. Christ is the express image of God, a spirit. Jesus is the body God prepared for that spirit.
.

csuguy · 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lighthouse

Logic, which is from God, dictates that only God is without sin.

Logic dictates no such thing; it is your baseless assertion.

Quote:

Romans 3:23 tells us all have sinned, but we know Jesus has not.

As you have pointed out, Jesus is an exception to Romans 3:23. Thus it is not all encompassing - it is speaking generally. Scripture often speaks in very general terms even though there are often obvious exceptions. For instance - Jesus of all in heaven and earth EXCEPT God himself who subjected all things to him.

Quote:

And John 1 tells us Jesus is God.

In a sense Jesus maybe called God - just as Moses was called God, just as the Jews are called 'gods', and just as angels in the OT were addressed as if they were God Almighty. But when we look at the full testimony of scripture it is clear that he is not actually God Almighty - just as none of those previously mentioned are actually God himself. He is the Son of God, his representative and the sole mediator between God and men. Jesus himself testifies that the Father is greater, and in numerous scriptures a differentiation is clearly made between Jesus and God.

surrender · Today, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lighthouse

OK, why did you not believe Jesus was God?

That's like me asking you why you don't believe that "palel" is meat.

Quote:

Did you consciously believe He was not God?

No. Again, it's like me asking you if you consciously believe that palel is not meat.

Lon · Today, 03:54 PM

Okay, let's take your argument for what? two seconds? Okay: There is one God and Jesus seems separate from that One here. No problem, right? I mean if this is all we have, you'd be on to something but this is, in fact, not all we have, not by a long shot.

Consider: Psalm 17:8

Question: Does God have wings? Answer: YES! You can't read it any other way and God does not lie. BUT does it mean God has literal wings? I don't think so. Why? Other scriptures tell us, that's why: John 4:24

"Oh! He's a S...pirit!"

"No wings. Gotcha."

************************************************** *********

On to unitarians:

Quote:

Originally Posted by genuineoriginal

James 2:19

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Mark 5:7

And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

How strange that the devils always called Jesus the Son of God and never thought of Him as the most high God.

So, God is literally not Jesus?....

Oh wait, then we get to John 1:1 and John 20:28...

So, yes. If someone is less than intelligent and tells us that God literally has wings, we might forgive them and certainly God can save that poor retarded, backwoods, inept, slack-jawed soul. We just call him/her a

when they walk away and feel sorry for them. That's really the chat around the water-cooler about you moon-unit-arians after you guys walk away.

Sorry.

Fact.

Can you be saved and be incredibly stupid? Yes, I think so, but it definitely is not making His job easier in spite of themselves/yourselves.

Tehmill · Today, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keypurr

I disagree, he had to be a man to be the Lamb of God.

Christ was IN Jesus. Christ is not God, he is a form of God. Christ has a God over him. The God that created him.

*
Do you have a son? in what way does a son differ from his father?

Saturday, July 6, 2013

Belief in the Diety is Necessary to Get Saved?

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Knight Stay thirsty my friends Posts: 33,582 Posts Per Day: 8.05 Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Colorado Rep Power: 459302 Christian Right Wing Fanatic *Slogan/motto:* I don't often mock people. But when I do, I mock liberals. Blog Entries: 5 Reputation:	Is belief in the diety of Christ an essential belief if one claims to be Christian? - Today, 12:57 AM Is belief in the diety of Christ an essential belief if one claims to be Christian? Join TOL on Facebook \| Follow TOL on Twitter \| TOL iPhone & Smartphone App TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today! ----------- Bibles for sale \| Logos Bible Software 15% Off

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surrender Over 1500 post club Posts: 1,624 Posts Per Day: 1.50 Join Date: Jul 2010 Rep Power: 4897 Christian More right than left *Slogan/motto:* empty Reputation:	Today, 02:16 AM So, all you guys who say it's essential to believe in the deity of Jesus came to that conclusion the moment you came to faith in Jesus as your Savior? The Spirit didn't baptize you into the body of Christ until you realized the deity of Jesus? Well, that would mean I followed Jesus for an entire year before I was a "Christian." I find that absurd.

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chrysostom TOL Subscriber Posts: 31,097 Posts Per Day: 10.62 Join Date: Jul 2005 Rep Power: 463521 Catholic Right Winger *Slogan/motto:* the Truth will make you happy Blog Entries: 6 Reputation:	Today, 06:46 AM 1 John 2:22 King James Version (KJV) 22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. a voice crying in the wilderness :chrysost:

tomlapalm TOL Subscriber Posts: 2,120 Posts Per Day: 2.53 Join Date: Mar 2011 Rep Power: 3834 Christian Right Winger *Slogan/motto:* Baptists are NOT Protestents Reputation:	Today, 07:20 AM If Jesus wasn't God, then there is no salvation for us. If Jesus wasn't God, then he was just another created being. His perfect life would only account for one eternal life, His own. But if God, himself, in the flesh, the Judge who condemned us, came down from the bench, became one of us and took our penalty to allow all of us to be with Him.

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