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Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csuguy
I would say all of them - I can't think of any off hand that are rooted in disbelief.
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Is shouldn't matter whether or not you can think of any. If you
claim no sins are rooted in unbelief, it would have to be based on a
logical argument, not what you think you see.
Quote:
Originally Posted by csuguy
If they didn't believe/know something was wrong then there is no sin.
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Then why will atheists perish? Romans 2 appears to contradict you, yet you try and use it to prove why atheists will perish.
Quote:
Originally Posted by csuguy
I don't know why you think murder would be rooted in disbelief? Murder is, typically, rooted in hate.
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1 John 2:9 The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now.
Doesn't that prove beyond doubt that hatred is rooted in unbelief?
1 John 3:15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
Doesn't that prove beyond doubt that a murderer does not believe?
I have liberty to be seen as a failure by you while being seen as a son by my Father.
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Let us not love with words or tongue, but with actions and in truth.
1 John 3:18
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Today, 02:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doormat
Is shouldn't matter whether or not
you can think of any. If you claim no sins are rooted in unbelief, it
would have to be based on a logical argument, not what you think you
see.
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There is a logical argument - if you do not know that you should
not do something, then why should God punish us and hold us accountable?
Not to say he could not discipline us in such a case to learn right
from wrong, but discipline is different from judgement. Paul testifies
that the Law was given for such a purpose, that apart from the Law sin
is dead.
Here's another good passage on the topic:
15 “See, I have set before you today life and [t]prosperity,
and death and [u]adversity; 16 in that I command you today to love the
Lord your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His
statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the
Lord your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to
possess it. 17 But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but
are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to
you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days
in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter [v]and possess
it. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have
set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose
life in order that you may live, you and your [w]descendants, 20 by
loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to
Him; for [x]this is your life and the length of your days, [y]that you
may live in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham,
Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.” Deut 30:15-20
When
God gave them the Law and formed the Covenant, God presented them with
life and death. Life if they followed the Law, death if they departed
from it.
Quote:
| Then why will atheists perish? Romans 2 appears to contradict you, yet you try and use it to prove why atheists will perish.
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When did I say that all atheists will perish? To the contrary,
belief is not what we will be judged by. Compare the sheeps and goats in
Matthew 25. What distinguishes them? It is not their beliefs, but
rather what they do that distinguishes them.
20 So then, you will [a]know them by their fruits. 21 “Not
everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven,
but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22
Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in
Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform
many [b]miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew
you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’ Matthew 7:20-24
Quote:
1 John 2:9 The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now.
Doesn't that prove beyond doubt that hatred is rooted in unbelief?
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Not at all. Rather, the verse is pointing out that hatred is
contrary to what is right and good, to the light. One may know that hate
is evil yet still do it.
Quote:
1 John 3:15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
Doesn't that prove beyond doubt that a murderer does not believe?
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This shows what I said before - that murder is rooted, generally,
in hate. Killing itself is not a sin - and is even sometimes required by
the Law. Rather, the action of killing takes on an evil character when
it is done for the wrong reasons - hate being the most common. This
verse says absolutely nothing about belief.
If you have material wealth, but do not give to those in need, then
the love of God is not in you. Whatever you have done for the least of
these you have done for HIM. To give to the poor is to lend to the LORD.
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Today, 02:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by csuguy
Compare the sheeps and goats in
Matthew 25. What distinguishes them? It is not their beliefs, but rather
what they do that distinguishes them.
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I disagree, and don't think we'll make any headway by continuing a
discussion if that's your perception. Unless you have something else to
add, you needn't respond again.
I have liberty to be seen as a failure by you while being seen as a son by my Father.
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Today, 02:44 AM
I would say that
Christ is not a religious dogma, Christ is a way of being. So that "sin"
isn't our rejection of the dogma, it's our rejection of that way of
being. I realize they are inter-related, as the dogma is supposed to
help us to find and follow the 'Way'. But there is a difference between
them, and not understanding this might cause one to follow the dogma,
and "believe all the right beliefs", and still not be living in the way
of Christ, in their hearts (which would be the essence of living in
sin).
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Today, 02:46 AM
Most people who sin, believe. Sin is caused by stubborn, self-centered free will.
But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always
be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the
reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and
respect. 1 Peter 3:15 (NIV)
Do your best to present yourself to God as one
approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly
handles the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15 (NIV)
For this very reason, make every effort by your
faith to produce virtue, by virtue knowledge, 6 by knowledge
self-control, by self-control steadfastness, by steadfastness godliness,
7 by godliness brotherly affection, and by brotherly affection love. 8
For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will make
you effective and productive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus
Christ. 2 Peter 1:5-8 (NIV)
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1 John 3:18
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Today, 02:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doormat
I disagree, and don't think we'll
make any headway by continuing a discussion if that's your perception.
Unless you have something else to add, you needn't respond again.
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Tell me then, what do you think distinguishes the sheep and goats in Matthew 25, the parable of the judgement?
We can stop here if you like, but its a shame that you won't even
consider a position that contradicts your own. If you do that, then you
are like an old wine skin.
If you have material wealth, but do not give to those in need, then
the love of God is not in you. Whatever you have done for the least of
these you have done for HIM. To give to the poor is to lend to the LORD.
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Today, 02:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PureX
I would say that Christ is not a
religious dogma, Christ is a way of being. So that "sin" isn't our
rejection of the dogma, it's our rejection of that way of being. I
realize they are inter-related, as the dogma is supposed to help us to
find and follow the 'Way'. But there is a difference between them, and
not understanding this might cause one to follow the dogma, and "believe
all the right beliefs", and still not be living in the way of Christ,
in their hearts (which would be the essence of living in sin).
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While I don't care for the Buddhist (?) overtones, I agree with the spirit of your post 
If you have material wealth, but do not give to those in need, then
the love of God is not in you. Whatever you have done for the least of
these you have done for HIM. To give to the poor is to lend to the LORD.
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Today, 02:50 AM
"Whatsoever is not of faith is sin."
How can any of you be arguing that no sin is rooted in unbelief?
I have liberty to be seen as a failure by you while being seen as a son by my Father.
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Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
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Today, 02:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PureX
I would say that Christ is not a
religious dogma, Christ is a way of being. So that "sin" isn't our
rejection of the dogma, it's our rejection of that way of being.
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Therefore, all sin is caused by unbelief.
I have liberty to be seen as a failure by you while being seen as a son by my Father.
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Today, 02:56 AM
I voted yes because Christ says "Sin because they do not believe in me."
And ; "The man who has faith in me will do the works I do."
Those who do not do the works of the son of man are sinners.
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Today, 02:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doormat
"Whatsoever is not of faith is sin."
How can any of you be arguing that no sin is rooted in unbelief?
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That verse, Rom 14:23, is OUT of context here.
The verse IN context here, would be James 4:17.
But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always
be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the
reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and
respect. 1 Peter 3:15 (NIV)
Do your best to present yourself to God as one
approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly
handles the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15 (NIV)
For this very reason, make every effort by your
faith to produce virtue, by virtue knowledge, 6 by knowledge
self-control, by self-control steadfastness, by steadfastness godliness,
7 by godliness brotherly affection, and by brotherly affection love. 8
For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will make
you effective and productive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus
Christ. 2 Peter 1:5-8 (NIV)
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Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
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Today, 02:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by csuguy
Tell me then, what do you think distinguishes the sheep and goats in Matthew 25, the parable of the judgement?
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Read Jesus' explanation of the parable. Is that not good enough?
Quote:
Originally Posted by csuguy
We can stop here if you like, but its
a shame that you won't even consider a position that contradicts your
own. If you do that, then you are like an old wine skin.
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I understand your argument, but find it irrational, at odds with
numerous scriptures, and contrary to several Bible commentaries. Since I
have six children to care for and many other responsibilities, please
understand that I'm not going to waste my time trying to reason with
irrational people.
I have liberty to be seen as a failure by you while being seen as a son by my Father.
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Today, 03:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanJ53
That verse, Rom 14:23, is OUT of context here. |
No, it's not out of context. It proves that whatsoever is
not of faith is sin, which means that at least some sins, if you don't
read "whatsoever" as all sins, are caused by an absence of
faith--unbelief.
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanJ53
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Do you believe all sin is caused by unbelief?
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Today, 03:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doormat
Read Jesus' explanation of the parable. Is that not good enough?
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Whenever we read scripture, we develop an interpretation. I've
told you my understanding of the passage, which you seem to disagree
with. That is why I am asking you for what you think the distinguishing
features of the sheeps and goats are?
Quote:
| I understand your argument, but find it irrational, at odds with
numerous scriptures, and contrary to several Bible commentaries. Since I
have six children to care for and many other responsibilities, please
understand that I'm not going to waste my time trying to reason with
irrational people.
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How is it irrational? If there is an error in my argument then
please show me where I am deficient that I may learn. However, I have
provided numerous scriptures in support of my position - and you have
not challenged a single one. Nor have you provided any scriptures which
threaten my position.
As for commentaries - my position may contradict whatever commentaries
you have read. However, commentaries are not authoritative. They are
merely the interpretation of other people. We must not concern ourselves
with aligning our thought with this or that theologian - but with
seeking the truth.
If you have material wealth, but do not give to those in need, then
the love of God is not in you. Whatever you have done for the least of
these you have done for HIM. To give to the poor is to lend to the LORD.
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Today, 03:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by csuguy
I've told you my understanding of the
passage, which you seem to disagree with. That is why I am asking you
for what you think the distinguishing features of the sheeps and goats
are?
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What was Jesus' explanation of the parable?
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Today, 03:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doormat
What was Jesus' explanation of the parable?
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There is no explanation following the parable in Matthew 25 -
there is just the parable. It is one of those self-explanatory parables -
and I have provided you my understanding of it already. Now, provide
your understanding of the passage - what distinguishes the sheep and
goats?
If you have material wealth, but do not give to those in need, then
the love of God is not in you. Whatever you have done for the least of
these you have done for HIM. To give to the poor is to lend to the LORD.
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Today, 03:17 AM
Except for the 10
commandments, sin is in the eye of the beholder. It isn't the action
that is the sin, it is the thought process behind the action that is the
sin. It all boils down to this: Do you love your neighbor as
yourself? Any action that you take that involves conscious awareness
that you are harming your neighbor is a sin. Sometimes you are not
aware that your actions hurt your neighbor and in this case, the action
is not sin. In order for you to consciously hurt your neighbor, you
must be in unbelief. You must not trust God.
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Today, 03:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by csuguy
There is no explanation following the parable in Matthew 25 - there is just the parable.
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Yet you expect me to do for you what Jesus didn't see fit to do?
Jesus said to not give what is holy to dogs and to not cast pearls before swine. Do you think I should listen to his commands?
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Is all sin caused by unbelief? No, not if unbelief is caused by sin.
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Whatever it takes to maintain your position eh?
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