John Armagh //.secular science is a convenient term to describe science that denies God.//
Then evolution and abiogenesis and cosmology are all *science* not "secular science", because none of them deny God - except in the warped imagination of the Creationists.
Edward Nims Mark Rogers: // These vast coal deposits are unsullied by other material.//
Wrong. This is why there are different grades of coal. They are not all pure. They have impurities blended in...- John Armagh // Christian theology has been in a quagmire for at least 200 years plus. //
Longer than that - but previous to that the science deniers were in the mainstream - now they are in the disreputable and discredited fringe cults of born againism and the Evangelical Right. 
Mickey Garces Sergio, science does not deny god. That's what the literal interpretation does to you. science has no comment on the truth of god! What ever God means!- Mickey Garces In the 17 century we had the development of natural theology. Men like Boyle, Hook, Stefno. These men were very religious men but they went where the empirical evidence lead them which grew into modern empirical science. They could not deny the truth!
Mathew Benjamin Barnard A quagmire? You may be surprised to learn that the Bible revealed that the earth is round. Job 26:10, Prov 8:27, Isaiah 40:22, Amos 9:6. Today, we chuckle at the people of the fifteenth century who feared sailing because they thought they would fall over the edge of the flat earth. Yet the Bible revealed the truth in 1000 B.C. 2500 years before man discovered it for himself!In various verses, the Bible says the earth is round and hangs in space. It took a long time for science to catch up and reach the same conclusions. Copernicus made the discovery in 1475. But the Bible always knew. Here are two related Bible verses that were written more than 2500 years ago, and more than 1000 years before Copernicus:"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth..." (Isaiah 40:22,NIV). (By the way, the Hebrew language at that time did not have a word for "sphere," only for "circle.")"He spreads out the northern [skies] over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing" (Job 26:7, NIV).- John Armagh So, all Mark Rogers has is copy/paste and "LOL". How very indicative of an intellectual acuity that is. A trained chimp could do as well.
- John Armagh It's a pity that the people who sailed on the Mayflower 400 years ago didn't fall off the edge of the world. Would have done us all a favour. We wouldn't now be suffering the idiotic anti-intellectual piffle of pathetic anti-Christian legacy of its passengers.
- Mathew Benjamin Barnard All you have are personal insults, John. Indicative of someone who can't prove his claims.
- Mark Rogers John Armagh--LOL maybe your deceived darkened soul will learn something if you take your blinders off and take the time to read info put out by one of NASA'S former best scientists DR CARL BAUGH--LOL
- John Armagh //All you have are personal insults, John. Indicative of someone who can't prove his claims.//
Errr, no actually. All the evidence has been presented time and time again - by myself and others, over several months on this page, and several years on others. When the evidence is repeatedly ignored then pointing out the deficiencies of the person or persons who remain wilfully ignorant is quite in order. 
James Daniel Logan "Mickey Garces... There is no such thing as creation science. There is only science. Creation was a supernatural event. Science can only observe and describe it. "
Perhaps I misread this...but it looks to me like you are contradicting yourself and explaining exactly what many are pointing out to you...."Science can only observe and describe it", yet you argue against what science observes and describes...simply because science does not mention God...but based on your own statement here, science can only 'observe'....can science 'observer' God? No, it cannot. So, therefore, is science can only 'observe' and describe what it observes, it cannot, by that explanation, even mention God....that does not mean it 'denies' God....it just stays within the boundaries set by what science actually is.....- Mark Rogers To the atheists: I have often noticed that many of you are very arrogant, pompous, and condescending towards religious people. But is your arrogance justified? Between 1901 and 2012 a grand total of 556 individuals have been awarded the Nobel Prize in one of the scientific areas such as chemistry, medicine, or physics. Of those individuals less then 50 were atheists. Let me repeat that: Less than 50 were atheists! And many of then were deeply religious. So if atheists are so much smarter than religious people, and if people who believe in God are such idiotic delusional fools, how come so very fee atheists have won a Nobel Prize in the sciences? Well, I guess you will always have Richard Dawkins. How many Nobel Prizes has he won? The fact is that the greatest minds in the world have usually been people who believed in a higher power. The fact is about 90% of Nobel Prize winners believed in God to one extent or another. Are you so much smarter than they were? Have you contributed more to humanity then they? So, my dear atheist brothers and sisters, please come down off your high horse and stop trying to insult the intelligence of religious people all the time.
- John Armagh //Immediately, John, that was after 1492.//
And...what?
I know when Columbus discovered America.
That does not actually address the point I was making. - James Daniel Logan " To the atheists: I have often noticed that many of you are very arrogant, pompous, and condescending towards religious people. "
LoL....I see this just as much if not more from those in the YEC crowd....as I mentioned somewhere else today, I love how people seem to think only one 'side' does this... - John Armagh // the earth was known to be round by that time. Wow. Lol//
I know - doh!
I was saying it was a pity that it wasn't round for the Mayflower.
You aren't very quick on the uptake, are you, Mathew? 
- Ollie Menham Anyway, pomposity is not restricted to any particular sub-set of belief or lack thereof. It's an unfortunate human trait that could do with being excised.
- James Daniel Logan Thank you Ollie....though some hear make me think I should become an atheist instead of a theist....lol.
- John Armagh Your maths ain't up to much, either, Mathew- you do know it is 2013 now, right? Subtract 400 years - takes you to roughly the time of the Mayflower - right?
I wasn't talking about Columbus's discovering the world was round - except that actually he hadn't - he just *thought* he had (did you know that?) - I was saying it was a pity that the world *was* round for the Mayflower.
Got it yet? - Mathew Benjamin Barnard I know, But Columbus proved you could not fall off the earth, So the passengers on the Mayflower were safe.
- John Armagh //maybe your deceived darkened soul will learn something if you take your blinders off//
LOL, Mark - the people with the deceived and darkened hearts here are the born again cultists. Atheists will fare better in God's judgement than those who claim to believe in God but hold beliefs which conclude God is an imbecile. Best of luck with that, matey. - John Armagh //I know, But Columbus proved you could not fall off the earth,//
No - he thought he had. But he did not actually get to India via the west, did he?
//So the passengers on the Mayflower were safe.//
More's the pity. - Mathew Benjamin Barnard So, you claim to be theists? You think God started as a one celled organism?
- John Armagh I am a Christian.
You clearly have no idea about real Christians - ones who believe in Almighty God. - John Armagh //No, he never thought he sailed off the edge of the earth.//
I never said he did. And he hadn't gone far enough to discover that he wouldn't. Is this *really* that hard to believe? - Mathew Benjamin Barnard No, your comments are So historically nonsensical, it's hard to tell what you are saying.
Vishnupriya Rama He preached the Flood of Noah and Jonah in the Fish 3 days were literal events, and that Hell is a literal place. // did Jesus preach these stories for the heck of it, Sergio?- John Armagh //Obviously, you didn't read that part.//
Creationists are not real Christians. Real Christians have a Christ-centred faith.
Creationists have a Genesis-centred faith. You are more properly called Genesisians. You worship the human words in a human language in a human artefact called Genesis. You put that artefact in higher importance than the evidence of God's Creation first hand. And that is idolatrist heresy. - John Armagh //No, your comments are So historically nonsensical, it's hard to tell what you are saying.//
Try *reading* and *thinking*. I'm sure you'll grasp those concepts in the fullness of time - even with the handicap of Creationism. - Vishnupriya Rama You put that artefact in higher importance than the evidence of God's Creation first hand. And that is idolatrist heresy.// As long as no other purposeful explanation has been issued, you should as well shut up.
- John Armagh If that meaningless ramble is your contribution, Vishnupriya, then you "should as well shut up" as well.
- Bonz Newman Mathew Benjamin Barnard Proof is for mathematicians and distillers. Are you one of those? Then why do you keep talking about "proof"?
- Vishnupriya Rama Don't we live in a secular countlry/hemisphere? Move to Saudi Arabia if you are bothered by paganism and co.
- John Armagh Not according to the born agains, mate - their witch hunts are still alive and well in their "churches" and on the streets.
- Vishnupriya Rama ihhh, go and read The Wife of Bath...it is much more recent than Genesis, and very instructive in this respect...
- John Armagh I'm not bothered about paganism - but born agains are pagans masquerading as Christians.
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