I
wasn't aware of this until recently, but one of the public schools I
work at has students separated into "good" and "bad" classes starting as
early as first grade. Is this the norm in Vietnam? Having taught this
bad class for a while now (and "taught" is a stretch. The classroom
environment is not exactly conducive to learning, despite my best
efforts.) I feel bad for these kids.
- You, Arthur Kidawa and 19 others like this.
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Hannah Ngan Ho I remember when I was still in elementary school in VN, there were about 60 children in a class and each child was classified from 1st to 60th rank in the class each month based on the mark score and good behaving. Now they have removed this from schools for more than 10 years. If the child was in the last position in the class this month, he was called "đội sổ" literally having a class-book on the head :))
Julia Blond Yeah, Scott Gelsthorpe, 1st graders (6-7 year olds) from low income families should know better than to disrespect the system, right?! It's not about smart or stupid, it's about money and the home environment these kids have. They are not stupid. Yes, they are rowdy. But that is only exacerbated by putting them with every other problem kid in their grade. It's like jail. They go in with a few issues and come out even worse. There is no moving up from this. Their parents are poor and they will also be poor because this system is fucked up.
Tarrin Buttimer they are also separated into 'advanced and low level' classes, yet they all learn the same content. I've only taught in this country so i can't comment on others. It is frustrating though.
Charlie Grayhurst I have explored setting up a system where I am, of core mixed classes in the morning, separate classes in the afternoon for gifted and talented, support and revision or vocational, followed by mixed extra curricular activities at the end of the day. Been difficult, though.
Thành Mai Scott Gelsthorpe if you live ur life to believe that the other kids are smarter than you. And just admited we all different in ability to adapt knowledge, then those teachers who taught those kids should get fired.- Thành Mai When i was in junior highschool, most of the time i was consider as naughty kids, who has no ability to study and be in the top of the class. Once time i fought with other students. One teacher came and said :"we should give up on those kids, they would have no chance in this society. Let judt send them back to their family." - to show that she was wrong, next semester i was in the top of the class. 8 years from that i have been educated, lived and worked in 5 countries. And it is all by this "left over" motivation and effort.
Scott Gelsthorpe Who said the naughty kids are from poor families? I received free school meals and behaved myself. Helped having parents who teach you how to behave. Making excuses for poor behaviour doesn't do anyone a favour. Least of all the kids.- Charlie Grayhurst Research has shown that children with FSM are more likely to perform poorly in academics and have behavioural issues. Just the same that the proportion of children with FSM are so poorly represented in grammar schools.
Todd Le It's not about the teachers or schools after all. It's about the students are willingly to learn or not. It starts out with family & its parenting. If education is parents' priority for their kids, obviously, kids have a better chance to succeed in school. If you have the best teachers & the best schools but students are not ready to learn, it is useless. It takes 2 to tango!
Robin Mason I really dislike segmentation or dividing up a class from the act of labelling a child as this or that level.- Charlie Grayhurst "If education is parents' priority for their kids, obviously, kids have a better chance to succeed in school." - But surely for some, the priority may be putting food on the table? Is it fair then?
- Charlie Grayhurst Or what about the older sister who has to look after siblings in the evening rather than do homework?
- Scott Gelsthorpe Kind of going away from the argument there. This was never really about the disparity in society between the haves and have nots. Poor behaviour is a parental issue. Teachers teach. Why is it that the majority of kids in Kent in a Grammar school don't receive free school meals? Look at the parents for your answer.
- Todd Le if putting food on the table is parents' priority, I then understand that and eventually they won't send kids to school. Who is here to blame? Teachers / schools or parents ? If kids can't come to school or not motivated to go to school, what can you do? This is always a dilemma for any school system in any country! Even in some education system is paying kids & their living expenses to go to school, but they still don't want to go.
Laszlo Pecsuvacz This system is all round the world... just they do not talk about it... fx: 3a, 3b, 3c... every school/country has they own fantasy...
Harry Hodge I had what had to be a "bad" class I subbed on Thursday, because the other two were normal. The TA slept the whole time. I'm sticking with international schools now....- William Allen I am currently teaching a few classes at a high school for dropouts. These kids are the ones you are all talking about. While I teach, a portion of the kids do not pay attention and do not do the exercises, whether it is speaking in pairs or groups. They also will not do writing exercises. It's my job to encourage them to study and possibly learn. It's the Vietnamese teacher's responsibility to supervise, discipline and translate when needed. Do they do it? Yes, and no. They translate quietly, supervise only by observation and they do not discipline at all. One time a fist fight broke out without warning. I had to intervene after watching the Vietnamese teacher "observe". This problem is one of a lack of discipline being taught by parents, teachers and school supervisors. I recall my own schooling when whatever happened at school was also dealt with at home with double the strictness. Did I want to learn? NO! Did I learn, HELL YES! am I thankful? HELL YES!
Jason Ovenden "Students don't learn from people they don't like" I have a class of 'not great' students - all boys...you know what I do, I take a subject that they are interested in and we have lessons on that. I regularly do 15min stints (as a reward for 30mins of normal study) talking about League of Legends. This class, although still not a great class for other subjects have suddenly started getting better English scores. And it's all to do with teaching them about something they already enjoy.- Tarrin Buttimer when you're a kid you have no idea of what you can do well. you're only aware of what you can't do and what adults indirectly remind you that you can't do. frustrated or bored kids display bad behaviour. they don't need discipline in most instances, only guidance. an adults responsibility towards any child is to help them find the things they are good at, and remind them constantly that they are good at it. helping them to find ways to absorb the stuff they aren't good at is part of that responsibility. Jason Ovenden nice work mate!
Lockie Harris It should be about care not who is bad or who is a little slower than another child , Try and put a child that's a little slower with a child that you feel or know who excels well in class , I have tried this and it works , Remember Kids are our future !
David Jonathan Leyola nice post mate!!! ill read the newspapers tomorrow!! youll be there again for sure- William Allen Tarrin Buttimer, you're right, but you misinterpreted "discipline". Discipline comes through daily guidance, not from crackin' skulls.
- Tarrin Buttimer William Allen I agree. I should of typed 'disciplining' to differentiate between the two.
Ngoc Bui Julia Blond Who told you that they devide class into "good" vs "bad" from 1st grade? Be careful when you provide information.
Most class separation is in high school when it's clearer that one have ability to get in colleage or not. There're 3 type of class:
- A: for the most talent kids. Just about 10% get in these class
- B: normal class, which make up about 60 - 70 %
- C: the 20% - 30% left.
There're other school for people with lower ability. Mind you, all of them share the same program, so if you happen to get in class C and later prove that you have the ability, still you have a chance for higher education.
Also, the teacher for good class is good at teaching advanced stuff, not neccessary good at dealing with naughty kids. And vice versa, teacher of "bad" class surely not good with teaching advanced stuff but may have good experience with dealing with naughty students.
The "elite education" system (i.e the A class) is not something particular in Vietnam, other countries, by this way or that way, apply it too. It's not neccessary a bad thing, it's matter how you do it.- Ngoc Bui It always amaze me the number of expat think that they know what to do with education system is way to high. I met a guy who told me that he wished he was the Vietnamese minister of education then he'd make the system way better. Like the guy Walter Hanagriff III above, who set feet in VN just for f**king 3 days and talk like he knows everything.
How to set up an education system is not easy thing to do. Every country struggle to figure out what works best for them. Vietnamese education system has a lot of problem for sure, but the separation issue above is not a big one. - Scott Gelsthorpe He probably could make the system better though Ngoc. Pay teachers a professional wage and then they might actually behave like professionals. Reduce the school day by 40% and scrap lessons on Weekends. That would be a good start. Oh and throw all those text books out the window and hopefully only rewarding rote learners with it. Some very clever kids in Vietnam but many can't demonstrate their ability and skills in the present system.
Christopher O'Leary Ngoc Bui - it's the "dunning Kruger effect", except worse. When it comes to education, everyone and his dog is a self-appointed expert.- Ngoc Bui That's your view. When you're in the position for real then you might have to deal with a lot of issue:
- Pay teachers a professional wage: where is the money to do so?
- throw all those text books out the window: when which education program you should base on?
- Reduce the school day by 40%: what to do with these kids in their free time? When their parent are not around to take care of them, and other social services (such as library, youth center) are not good enough
I mean when you claims that "Were me, I would make it better", really think about it. 
Đau Tim Vựt Ngoc Bui FYI, about 12 years ago I was made to spend my holiday summer in an extra class studying in order to get into a"top" 1st grade class. and I'm sure that there are many young children today suffering the same fate with me ... so though you are right about that the dividing class system is "not neccessrily a bad thing , it's matter how you do it " ,the bitter truth is the vn educational system is doing it wrong (as many above have mentioned) and this has been taking away many youngsters'right to have a good education... and hmm even they all teach them equally like in those top class , it is still shitty as all they do is scamming unpractical, unuseful knowdledge into student's head . I still think the real problem with the Vnmese educational system is that it needs a new program, a new approach and quality teachers.- Ngoc Bui Đau Tim Vựt As I mentioned above, I agree that Vietnamese has many problem in education system. I just don't agree that people seem think separation practice - as its nature - is surely a bad one.
Now talking about how much time you need to spend to study. We can turn to China, Korean and Japan. Specially Japan one. I believe they have a harder program compare to Vietnam, cause I usually heard that high school student has to study til 11pm (after the whole day and evening in school). Vietnamese students does not have such heavy program yet. But I think you won't disgree that Japanese system are working very fine.
About your case, think twice about it. If you're in the city and your parents are working, sending you to summer class sometimes are their only choice. Maybe they really want to make you the top at 1st grade, maybe they simply don't have time to take care of you. 
Walter Hanagriff III Ngoc Bui, I have actually spent 4 months in vietnam, have over 30 vietnam friends (Those that I often talk to and interact with) that I discuss the school system amongst other social studies that I do, and I do research on school systems around the world. I have an idea of how things work thats not expert level, but that is above your assumptive level I am willing to bet (as far as the academics of education system workings). Some european systems are doing quite well and could be learned from. And what to do with their free time? Focus on club activities, continue to work on social programs and worker protections so that people arent so exploited and working 50+ hours for crap pay. But then that would take getting corruption down to a more reasonable level and working for the people of the country. Vietnam has money, its just not used to serve the people. As long as money is circulating properly, it works better all around. You pay workers more, they have more to pay back in taxes, they spend more which is used to pay more taxes, etc... therefore the gov can spend more. Businesses pay more money, work people less hours, but then people also have more money to spend on those businesses. Its a cycle that is quite effective. Small steps forward is the key.- Lockie Harris Just as a pure fact I was a Teacher in the elementary school system in Japan for 5 years , and the Japanese send their kids to cram school and some of them do not get home till late in the evenings , They want their children to be well educated and successful , But this also leaves no time for the kids just to be kids .
- Christopher O'Leary If both parents are working? So the logic is... Mum and dad must work extra hours to earn enough money to pay someone else to look after junior while they work those hours? Eh, why not, the west has been proceeding on that asinine basis for years, why not Vietnam!
- Christopher O'Leary The Japanese system is a terrible example ofe a good system...who'd want to be a Japanese kid, or adult for that matter? These are not good examples with which to back up your argument, is my point"
- Ngoc Bui Christopher O'Leary it's not something stupid to do if mom and dad know that they get more money in these extra hours than the money they have to pay for people taking care of their kids. And mom and dad also know that people only have limited chance: when they're in good time and position to make money, they have to use it. It's mordern world, no way to avoid.
- Lockie Harris I'm not saying its good and I'm not backing anyone in this , I'm saying I witnessed it for five years as a teacher in Japan .All I care is that we care for the kids and try our best when we are in control of the class room , as I said before Kids are our future !
- Ngoc Bui Christopher O'Leary If the quality of students as future worker is the score for a good system, then YES, Japanese is a good one.
Now, you might don't like the fact that Japanese kids have to work so hard. But if you look at Japanese philosophy: "Our country has no resource, therefore we have to work hard" then it's not a supprise anymore. And somehow they do it right. Despite of the fact that they're left empty after WW2, that the country usually suffer from disaster, they are a very strong economy (and has wonderful culture). Yes, they pay big price to be success, but who does not? - Christopher O'Leary Really, funny how people managed to, o, not even 60 years ago. It is not inevitable.
- Thành Mai http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h11u3vtcpaY well, this debate would last forever. Let this kid tell his opinion how to be happy, confidence, and ready for any kind of job
www.youtube.comWhen 13 year-old Logan LaPlante grows up, he wants to be happy and healthy. He d...See More - Ngoc Bui Walter Hanagriff III: To quote you "The truth is splitting the kids up is ineffective as a whole also. Since you have to test well to even get into A, its a self fulfilling prophecy. Next, its free in A? That makes it even worse, might as well say that B and C can go die in a ditch for all they care."
--> This show you know nothing about Vietnamese education system. As mention above, A is just about 10%: it's the dream of getting elite intellect (same as other countries which apply the elite education system). And NO, B and C is not let to die in ditch. Especial B - which is a major number of Vietnamese pupils. Do you think any country is stupid enough to igore the majority of its people??
I mean it's OK if you critized the system, but you have to do it right. You don't know much about the system yet, so you get the wrong idea. - Walter Hanagriff III Ngoc Bui, it only shows that you cant read. Other vietnamese admitted that many of the groups are not given nearly enough attention. And yes some countries are stupid enough to only focus on their "elites". US is getting that way in fact. You didnt rea...See More
- Scott Gelsthorpe Ngoc. I'll answer one point because it is key. How to pay teachers a professional wage? Vinalines, EVN. That would cover teachers for a good few years.
- Scott Gelsthorpe It was the EVN loss I was alluding to. Well, I don't claim to know all VN teachers in Vietnam but of those I spoke to, they'd prefer not to have to work 30 hours a day, teach kids after school to make enough money to live and teach them content that they should have been taught during the 10 hours at school but weren't. Prefer not to allow cheating in their classes just to look good and not get any grief for why their kids are failing. Do teachers feel valued by the system? Really? And if they don't feel valued, how motivated do you really think they are?
- Original Oatmeal People blame the teachers for the failure of the students. That puts unhealthy pressure on educators. Each individual student has unique needs and will learn at different rates, ways, speeds, and styles.
The best kind of teachers are those who are adaptable and flexible enough to advancing teaching methods. A teacher failing to evolve is similar to doctors, dentists, and scientists who refuse to take adapt to developing technologies, techniques, ways of doing things, and so on.
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