Tuesday, January 21, 2014

Edu Can Suck Balls

Julia Blond
I wasn't aware of this until recently, but one of the public schools I work at has students separated into "good" and "bad" classes starting as early as first grade. Is this the norm in Vietnam? Having taught this bad class for a while now (and "taught" is a stretch. The classroom environment is not exactly conducive to learning, despite my best efforts.) I feel bad for these kids.
I wasn't aware of this until recently, but one of the public schools I work at has students separated into "good" and "bad" classes starting as early as first grade. Is this the norm in Vietnam? Having taught this bad class for a while now (and "taught" is a stretch. The classroom environment is not exactly conducive to learning, despite my best efforts.) I feel bad for these kids.
Like ·  ·  · January 16 at 5:07pm
  • Yesterday at 12:33am · Like
  • Scott Gelsthorpe Ngoc. I'll answer one point because it is key. How to pay teachers a professional wage? Vinalines, EVN. That would cover teachers for a good few years.
    Yesterday at 12:37am · Like · 1
  • Ngoc Bui Walter Hanagriff III I quote you because I just want a proof that you actually said that line, not that I make it up. I do not know to who you're speaking to, but if people told you that they had studied in B class and think that teacher don't care about them then expect it's bullshit. They're care enough for they can get into college (of-course if they work hard enough). I have plenty of friends who studied in B class and later doing just fine. A class has special treatment is un-avoidable in elite education system.

    To quote you again "its still making assumptions about capabilities based on test scores, and often at ages too young to give an acurate judgment"
    --> Which system does not grade their students? There're might a few (very rare) refuse to rate their students at all, most system still does. You seem to think that if a kids does not do good in elementary school, he'll be forever in bad class. No, it's not like that (ask your friend again to confirm if you want to). If you're harding working and have ability, there're always chance for you. That's why you hear a guy above boast about being considered "naughty" student and later become top one in the next year. Vietnamese system however will get serious when you get into high school. But here, the student is not exactly too young anymore.

    "I also dont need to know the total detail of a system to know what parts of it dont work or are plain bad, Your own opinions seme to be based on the idea of keeping the status quote in place, while we are saying change the whole system"
    --> I have to tell you again though I already mention in all of my post above: I agree Vnese education system has many problem. I disagree with you because you choose the wrong thing to criticise and base on wrong assumption.
    Yesterday at 1:14am · Edited · Like · 2
  • Ngoc Bui Scott Gelsthorpe I disagree that teacher wage is the key. Again you seem don't know the Vietnamese education system enough to think money solve all problem (and you seem to think that most of Vietnamese teacher just do sh*t, dont care about student at all because their wage is too low. It's far from the truth, FYI). The key is to change the program: the materials, how to teach.. In my opinion Vietnamese teachers somehow can't handle the new way of teaching yet, not neccessary that they're bad, just that they get really used to the old system.

    About the money: well yes, if we take EVN profit, and prevent Vinalines not to happen, we will have a lot of money to do thing, not only for education system but also maybe heathcare, for example. Then the situation must be much different from now. Anyway, a solution base on a "if" is still not a solution.
    Yesterday at 1:14am · Like · 1
  • Scott Gelsthorpe It was the EVN loss I was alluding to. Well, I don't claim to know all VN teachers in Vietnam but of those I spoke to, they'd prefer not to have to work 30 hours a day, teach kids after school to make enough money to live and teach them content that they should have been taught during the 10 hours at school but weren't. Prefer not to allow cheating in their classes just to look good and not get any grief for why their kids are failing. Do teachers feel valued by the system? Really? And if they don't feel valued, how motivated do you really think they are?
    Yesterday at 1:18am · Like · 1
  • Original Oatmeal People blame the teachers for the failure of the students. That puts unhealthy pressure on educators. Each individual student has unique needs and will learn at different rates, ways, speeds, and styles. 

    The best kind of teachers are those who are adaptable and flexible enough to advancing teaching methods. A teacher failing to evolve is similar to doctors, dentists, and scientists who refuse to take adapt to developing technologies, techniques, ways of doing things, and so on.
    Yesterday at 1:24am · Like · 2
  • Ngoc Bui Scott Gelsthorpe I think EVN is not really a loss, they just claims that they lost. Vinalines is a truly lost.

    You seems to get to know bad type of teacher - the one that refuse to teach what they suppose to so to get student to scam school. Lucky me, I never know such kind of teacher in my life, at least at the town I was living as a teenager. The teacher does open scram school for student who want to study some advanced stuff, however it's their duty to cover basic/normal program at school. I just think, to refuse to teach is not easy as you think, since there's supervisor come checking for what you do in class.
    23 hours ago · Like
  • Original Oatmeal teachers are not paid enough
    23 hours ago · Like
  • Thuy Pham I think it is just that school? Some other schools, at each grade, have one good class where the best students tested well will be admitted. The class is very competitive. I was also at the "good class" and it trained me to be competitive and I hate it. I also hate "bad class" because neither students there want study nor teachers want to teach. How can we solve this problem?
    15 hours ago · Edited · Like
  • Walter Hanagriff III 1) Teachers really arent paid enough and Ngoc Bui just keeps using excuses. This isnt a forum to change anything, its just discussion, so we should talk about what works with the willpower, because it makes for interesting discussion. We should not be defeatist and say if only somebody would do it, it would work, but nobody will so why talk about it  Whats the point of even participating in such discussion. Right? Also seems Ngoc dismisses almost everything as not a problem  So what is the problem in your opinion Ngoc? Thuy Pham, I think the solution is to bring a trainer in from a euro country or asian one where the school system seems to be more successful and see what they can learn and train a group of teachers for a few months, then send them out to the schools to train teachers, and change the attitude of the whole system. It will take awhile to proliferate the new teaching system through training, but should be effective. Will take 1 generation to change the attitudes of students from the old system to the new also.
    15 hours ago · Like
  • Erich Dang In the old days, we actually had a very highly successful school system inherited from the French. Furthermore, Vietnamese graduates from the Military Academy in Dalat and the Polytechnic Institute in Saigon were awarded US Bachelor of Science degrees. The revolution changed all that. The graduates of the old school system are now high successful businessmen, engineers, medical doctors, astronauts, lawyers in America and elsewhere. The sad thing is Vietnamese students coming to the States for college are simply not ready for the rigorous curriculum even at some state colleges.
    14 hours ago · Like · 2
  • Jason Rouzaire Yep Erich Dang, you're right. I was just reading about this recently. The same thing occurred with the revolutions in Russia and China. The smart people disappeared, education went backwards. It's all part of communism 101.
    14 hours ago · Like
  • Original Oatmeal I was homeschooled
    14 hours ago · Like
  • Ngoc Bui Walter Hanagriff III You just show that you can't read and even more, can't debate. Re-read my post above, I DON'T claim that there's no problem in VNese education system. Also, I do not claim that teacher has receive enough money. I just say money can't solve the problem of this system. The problem is in the old method of teaching, old materials, old approach.. Suppose that we double the teacher's wage, still most of them can't handle the new method of teaching.

    Now is it clear? If you can't even understanding this simple post, then I have to blame American education system.
    11 hours ago · Like
  • Walter Hanagriff III Ngoc Bui, i will blame it on english being your second language, i would assume. But your the one not reading properly. I said that you dismiss almost everything as not a problem. I did not say that you see no problems. My point is that you cant seem to decide whats the problem even though you admit there are problems. Next, I asked you to tell us what you see as the problem. But you are right, you just dismissed teacher pay like everything else, as part of the problem. But money does help either way. Nobody is claiming that any one issue is the problem or solves the problem. People are claiming that these things are part of a systematic issue. Your the one not being clear. My english is just fine. Of course we need to change the old systems, thats part of whats been complained about the whole time.
    11 hours ago · Like
  • Ngoc Bui Walter Hanagriff III This is the last post to you, since I can't afford to waste time more. "My point is that you cant seem to decide whats the problem": Yawn, reading the previous posts again, I list numbers of problem there. "Nobody is claiming that any one issue is the problem or solves the problem" --> Yes, there's a guy claim that teacher's wage is the key to solve the problem. 

    "you just dismissed teacher pay like everything else": please, do you have problem in reading skill? I never dismiss teacher pay issue, but still it's not one thing crucial need to change first and foremost. Let me explain in a simple way so you can understand. You have a factory that does not work well because the machine is too old. Your worker seem not really enjoy working too, and therefore you does not make much profit. What would you do? As someone suggest above, double the worker salary. I said it's not wise, replace the machine first.

    Now, my rant is over. Please read it and try to understand what I mean. I feel like a broken record that I have explain the same thing over and over again to you.
    11 hours ago · Like · 1
  • Walter Hanagriff III One guy maybe, but key doesnt mean only. It just means that giving a teacher a less financially stressful life helps with motivation, he is right to a degree. But again, english is your second language, so a tip Key doesnt mean only, it means a high priority issue. He is definitely right there. I stopped following the debate after the first half and by then you had not listed many problems but had dismissed everybody elses. So forgive me for missing when you finally answered the question more clearly. As for reading, you definitely were dismissive about teacher pay. But maybe it was your misunderstanding about what key means. But now you know. Communication issues are always difficult here but at least now things are more clear than before.
    11 hours ago · Like
  • William Allen Walter Hanagriff III. Your English is not very good. You said, "i and "english"(notice the small cases) When you begin a sentence with "but" it also your amateur English skills. That was followed with "your", when it should have been "you're". In just the first two sentences, your points are invalidated.
    9 hours ago · Like · 1
  • Walter Hanagriff III Really, so your being a grammar nazi? Your grammar might be fine but your comprehension skills need lots of work if you think that was the point. I cant even tell if your joking when you try to invalidate any argument by being a grammar nazi o_O Thanks for your non-contribution 
    8 hours ago · Like
  • William Allen Walter, you should stop making teachers look bad with your nonsensical remarks. I prefer the term grammarian.
    8 hours ago · Like
  • William Allen Next you'll be calling me a punctuation" nazi", with a lower case, as usual.
    8 hours ago · Like
  • Walter Hanagriff III Oh brother, your not making teachers look good by being semantical either. I am really not concerned about your view on teachers either way. With your bad attitude, I think you wont be a good role model.
    8 hours ago · Like · 1
  • Tarrin Buttimer Ngoc Bui great points you've made. Also, many managers are aware that money isn't the key. People adjust to the increase in approx 3 months and then return to the previous motivation levels. Current practice is to set targets for the worker with set financial rewards for higher skills gained and practiced. In a factory it's learning how to operate the new machine.
    8 hours ago · Like · 2
  • Scott Gelsthorpe If you change the curriculum and still pay teachers crap, you'll not draw higher qualified and possibly more able people to the profession. You'll not retain the best teachers. The curriculum is unlikely to be changed as it is too closely entwined with ideology. Ask any Vietnamese student at high school how they feel about History and Literature. Rote learning is nothing but memory games. Free thinking, interpretation and opinion are not welcome so any hope of an alternative curriculum is just lip service. School is largely just extended kindergarten. Other countries have both parents working but the kids finish school at 3pm and start at 8am. How does that work? Because the kids go to the school nearest to them and are not ridden 10km's across a city blocking up the roads, just so they can go to the best school that their connections/money bought access to.
    about an hour ago · Like · 2
  • Original Oatmeal I agree with Scott Gelsthorpe.
    about an hour ago · Like
  • Scott Gelsthorpe Thanks OO. Your strangeness is becoming endearing.
    about an hour ago · Like
  • Original Oatmeal like Hallmark cards
    about an hour ago · Like
  • Original Oatmeal another Kodak Moment
    about an hour ago · Like
  • Original Oatmeal like Diamonds & Dogs: your best friends forever, good to the last drop: you can obey your thirst: have it your way: just do it.


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